G'day grouse RPOLspians,

I would love to include sounds from Freesound.org and Soundcloud.com in my posts.

- Ambience
- SFX
- etc.

Primary benefit: complete awesomeness in being able to give your players that extra depth.

Secondary benefit: promoting inter-site community love (in particular with the independent freesound.org)

Tertiary benefit: GMs and players could take advantage of these other sites to upload their own samples to be used. (I have a Zoom H4n and make my own SFX for various projects... I'm sure I'm not the only dabbler.)

What do you think community?

So functional spec:

A) Freesound.org
- A link down in new/edit post, with the formatting options, perhaps after 'code' = 'embed audio'
- Enter URL of .wav or .mp3
- Renders in post, a small 100 x 100 box with Play / Pause. Similar to that of http://www.freesound.org/search/?q=systen+online.

B) Soundcloud.com
- Allow existing embed code to work in post, eg.

This message was last edited by the user at 06:14, Tue 26 Feb 2013.

I'm not sure what the4 maximum is, but plus that.

I have often felt the next step sites like RPoL was the addition of sensory options, including this one. (Next comes smell-o-vision!)

What I have done in the past is put a youtube link in a separate thread, and allow players to click on them to play while they read, if they wish. This would be much more organic.

Another plus, it seems to me, is that this would be one of the few requests that does not involve messing with the data!

Good luck with this one.

Serious -1
WHY?

Follow the link and see the kinds of sounds that people might imbed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHUsIU161w4

0

I wouldn't use it, as a GM or a player, but I suppose I can see why others might want it.  I don't really like it, but I'm not so strongly opposed as to vote it down.

Yeah, posting urls in line is one thing....

But having it organically in posts, with a play/pause grants the use a seamless, immerse experience.

As for embedding horrible stuff, as per Alexi:
1. No YouTube or other video
2. Flag for moderation icon with embedded clip
3. Restrict use to GM
4. Personally I would use it to add to my games, not inundate players with German metal...
5. The player can play or pause it. So if they don't like it, they have the power to stop the sound.

Why -1 instead of discuss your issues with it first?

-1

I don't know the option I think to have a link to click on seems better at least to me then having something pop on as soon as you go in. I am one who doesn't like sounds going when you click onto things like forums like this. Have the option to listen if the person chooses, but not something that automatically starts when you go in.

Besides I would think having something like this anyways especially if a lot of people are using it could take up a lot of room perhaps make that area if the site slower. It would be a little different then pictures, but I don't specifically know that side of things.

And Alexi has a point, you just don't know what some people would do with it. Just because you would use it for good, doesn't mean others would.

In reply to ashberg (msg # 5):

Here is an issue you havent answered: What happens if there are two sounds on the same page of a thread?

Here is another: What about the people who use RPoL from work and could get in trouble if their bosses knew? Or their bosses DO know and presently dont care: but would when random strains of screaming from an imbedded 'immersive' file disrupt other people in the workplace?

Seriously, from what I see this has not been thought through.

In reply to ashberg (msg # 5):

A lot of your points do solve some of the issues I've thought of, though I must disagree with #5.

It should not be up to the GM to dictate what music is played on an user's machine, it should be up to them.  So I would suggest that it needs to be set to off, and the player can turn it on if they want to.

With that change; what's been asked can be done already, without tying RPoL into a particular site.  Add in your link, and if people want to listen to it they can middle-mouse click on it (or whatever their "open in a new tab hotkey" is for their browser of choice).  Granted it's not embedded, but it's got everything else you've asked for without disempowering the end user.

Time for my rebuttal! ;)

ashberg prepares his notes (http://www.freesound.org/peopl...stein/sounds/176053/), and sighs (http://www.freesound.org/peopl...coder/sounds/146769/).

---

Issue: Auto play sounds - eww





Solution: It's a mini player, not auto-player

Simply: NO sounds will play automatically. I have been building websites for 10+ years - and I'm well aware of how annoying auto-play songs are in websites. I remember back in the GeoCities era, when they were midi files!

If you go to http://www.freesound.org/ you can see on the homepage there is a Random sound of the day right there -> embedded. It uses javascript to render the file in a mini-player. It needs the user to click the PLAY icon in order to hear it. It doesn't play automatically.

^ This functionality is what I imagine.

---

Issue: Server load and space


Solution: Audio content stays where it is, on other sites
No files would be stored on RPOL servers. Allowing some kind of embed code to be used in posts still loads the audio from it's original location. There would be no impact on site speed or server space.

---

Issue: People will embed sounds or songs that breach RPOL policy


I think line of reasoning is unsubstantiated. GMs and players already can post images and links within a thread, which point to ANY URLs.

<img src="http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/28112719.jpg">
http://www.this-is-an-inapprop...ite.com.au.yes.it.is

Solution: RPOL policy still covers anything posted
What is the current procedure for reporting a link or image that is offensice/breaches policy? Would it not simply still apply as per usual?

---

Issue: But I'm at work


Solution: User needs to hit play to activate the audio
A - I get this. I'm log into RPOL at work too.
B - Headphones / earplugs.
C - Audio is not set to Auto-Play. It's not like embedding youtube clips which auto-play. Again, please see how javascript mini-players work on http://freesound.org.

---

No - I haven't written an essay about it for the OP. I wanted to put it out there for discussion. Hearing your thoughts about what wouldn't work about it is very important in the exercise of scoping requirements - so I thank you for your participation. Hearing your fears and concerns help to shape this concept into a reasonable proposal.

---

Issue: To audio, or not to audio?


Solution: It's all about the mood
I understand your point here; totally. However with no auto-play of sound or song, as mentioned above:

If the GM were to embed a spooky song from Soundcloud, that requires the user to hit Play to start the track, to create a mood for the scene --

• how does that differ from putting an image inline to enhance a post (<img src="">) ?;
• is this not a technique employed by tabletop GMs hoping to set the mood for players?
• would players not have the simple choice of turning off other music to listen to that which the GM has inserted, as they read the latest posts and to write their reply? or just totally ignore it?

---

Sorry - what does this mean?

---

Issue: Why not just add a link as usual


Solution: Because AWESOME, that's why.
Sure. I get this is possible - however you're asking your players to middle/right click, open in new tab, etc etc... assuming user's behaviour is risky (in design/dev); so why not make it simpler for everyone?

Why I requested this feature
RPOL is already a cut above the rest of Play By Post sites. Having a feature like this further cements RPOL as the best Play By Post provider on the internet. It adds unique functionality that separates RPOL from the rest of the pack.

I mostly play and GM games that lean toward collaborative fiction and freeform, ie I am not into hacknslash. I have a background in music, touring with independent unsigned artists and groups, and in audio production. I'm sure there are many GMs who are passionate about music who are familiar with local, unsigned artists.

Providing this feature would allow for greater exposure of  unsigned (and some signed) artists who use Soundcloud to share their music. Additionally, many users of freesound.org take requests: so if you're needing some SFX to use in your game - having the ability to embed a freesound.org-style mini-player may encourage our RPOL community to connect with users of freesound.org - contributing to the philosophy of building and maintaining online communities and friendships.

Finally, I have observed that many dev requests that come through are very admin based - for the most part helping GMs run their games more effectively. So this request is of a rare breed - in that it will have a direct impact on player satisfaction.

http://www.freesound.org/people/Halleck/sounds/18665/
This message was last edited by the user at 02:45, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

-1

I would much rather have the choice be mine.  If I'm not willing to click the link, it's a pretty good indication that I don't want to hear the music.

?

The choice is ALWAYS yours. The GM has only embedded a SFX sample or mood-setting song because they have chosen it to enhance your experience of the scene... it's up to you to click play or not.

Nobody is FORCING anything on you.

In fact, talking about forcing things on you: what I dislike personally is players and GMs who post images of Hollywood actors - but I have no choice there, I can't unsee it.

But with this it's a little player. It would not auto-start.

I am still going with my original opinion on this, if it is something that the people would need to click on to play anyways. Then it is no different then having the people go to the link provided by the GM, that in which they can use where ever they chose to get their sounds or music from.

While it could be a neat feature, I don't specifically seeing it as a needed one.

Just a quick reminder of votingness:

[Begin quote]
Voting for/against suggestions:
Positive votes:  Vote for something if you think it's a good idea.  That's simple.
Neutral votes:  Don't cast a negative vote if you wouldn't use the function or don't see a point to it.  You might not use a suggested feature but many other users would.  This forum is not about what you would like to see implemented.  e.g. another option being available that you wouldn't use.
Negative votes:  Vote against something if you think it would adversely affect you or the site.  e.g. popup advertising, all text being yellow on pink.
[End quote]
This message was last edited by the user at 02:51, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

Well, while I still think that this idea is kind of problematic, thanks at least for directing me to the free sounds site, I am currently listening to a ten minute recording of the waves off Fiji.

- 1

Wouldn't embedding music considerably increase the load time, even if the person doesn't hit play? Also, I don't think iframes are a possibility. If they're available for sound pages, they're available for any other url you want to use.

You could link to the music without embedding it. I do this for character music playlists.

Also, you'd be redirecting to the music site anyway, if the music player for certain audio files isn't kept on the RPOL server. Why not just link?

-1.  It's just asking for trouble, because sooner or later someone will try to sneak something through, and it will end up forcing the mods to listen to and approve all the sound clips that get posted.  The games are fine the way they are, and you can always throw out a link if you want to.

@adrasteia1
I don't believe server load time would be affected. The data is still on the host site (eg, freesound) and the mini-player would be hitting their server to play the file. Nothing is stored on RPOL servers = load time not impacted. That's my understanding of it.

@KaiWriter
This is why a 'flag for moderation' icon/link could be included in the mini-player. Also - I don't see how this would adversely impact the moderator's job. If the workload is increased - recruit another mod! :P


Another quote from this forum's required reading:



Providing a javascript mini-player (which plays files hosted on other servers) would certainly contribute to the maturation of the site - adding an extra level of sensory immersion.

@Alexei Yaruk-Mundhenk
Imagine having a mini-player of that Waves of Fiji audio sample you found, but in your post when your group are on the beach arguing over where the rum's gone!
This message was last edited by the user at 03:39, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

Please remember that other users are allowed and encouraged to provide their input - please note another point from the 'Required Reading':

I'm welcoming of others input! Discussion is great!

I am just rebutting each comment in an effort to allay fears that they or the site will be adversely affected.

It is of my passionate opinion that this feature has more pros than cons; in particular with a heavy focus on providing a simple tool to allow GMs to take their game to a new level of immersive RPing.

I'm actually neutral on this idea. But just to throw a little something out there for people to chew on.

I know there are no plans for making an app, or really even doing much in the way of making the site super mobile-friendly. But a LOT of people access the site from various mobile devices. And not all of those mobile devices allow for multiple tabs. So while the "Just link it" advice sounds good, there would be players who would enjoy hearing the linked sound, but would be unable to due to the functioning of their mobile browser. Is that enough players to make it worth embedding things? I have no idea. But my first thought when I saw that mentioned was "What if I was checking from my phone?" I try not to post from my phone because it's ridiculously tedious and prone to autocorrect-related errors. But I do frequently read from my phone.

I don't know if this is feasible, but what if instead of being in a post, the GM set up the link in the GM menu, and then players had a `play' button that they could, at their option, click?  I'm not sure if I'd want it at the top of the thread (in the Title/Posted By/Group # line) or at the bottom (even with the [top] link, somewhere.)  The first feels a little more stylish to me, the latter more functional - since people who click on [new] or [last] won't see the first.

The GM could edit this link, and therefor the `current soundfile', by editing the Thread.  Maybe GMs would get a "Sound URL" window right under the Other Name Window when they do an edit on the first post in the thread.  So as the situation changes, they can add, change, or remove the ambient sound.  If the window is empty, the Play Audio link, of course, would disappear.  When it's playing, it would change to Stop Audio to turn it off.


...I actually have to admit, as a player, I'm a lot more likely to click on something like that than I am to actually open a new window, even if I know it's still linking to another site.  I know the psychology is silly, but it's there.

I don't think it would give the mods any more to do than they already have.  If somebody does something inappropriate, somebody will report it and they'll check in and address the problem, just like with everything else.  If this particular feature turns out to be hugely more trouble than anything else for some reason, then it could be taken away, or set aside for subscription-only someday, but I don't see it.  I don't like the idea of a "flag for moderation" link - if we're expecting that kind of trouble, I'd say no, it shouldn't be there for sure; if we're not, then Rmailing the moderators is already there.

Although I don't think `recruiting another mod' is that easy.  One reason the mods on RPoL are so awesome is because they're so carefully chosen.  I think.  I know BBR was moderating for like ten years before they caught on to him. grin

But my thinking on this is completely based on the premise that you're right that it won't increase load times or anything like that, and I have no idea.

In reply to KaiWriter (msg # 16):

Can we brainstorm some things that would require moderation? Identifying the perceived risks will mean we can methodically mitigate them.

In reply to Maidenfine (msg # 20):

I would be even less likely to utilise this feature from a mobile device.  For those without unlimited data plans this could very, very quickly not only unnecessarily bog down their load times but it could also see them charged extra on their bill.  As an additional thought, some mobile browsers don't support in-browser play of music (if I remember correctly; I'm pretty vanilla and just use Chrome on my mobile devices).  Some devices might not even support the imbedded player.

---

With each new opinion tossed into the thread I'm actually getting closer and closer to changing to a down vote.  I just can't see the advantage in this at all, and I'd be pretty frustrated if I were constantly bombarded in games with something that could go wrong, that my browser might choke on, that might be visibly jarring in the theme I'm currently using, etc.  If I want music I listen to it on my own; when the GM provides a list of "this is what inspired me" I tend to give them a check as well.  But I just don't see the point to having it embedded.

In reply to Maidenfine (msg # 20):

Good point: re mobile devices.

I too often read from my smartphone; but post from desktop/laptop.

Though - the particular javascript mini-player would need to be cross-platform tested, because it is possible that some phone/browser combos will not render javascript properly.

In reply to Lunarius (msg # 23):

Music is one thing; but what about home-made SFX?

Eg, wind in the trees, nature sounds, clashing swords, a creaky door opening, birds chirping, footsteps on autumn leaves....

In reply to Utsukushi (msg # 21):

Just like an image pulls the file from off-site, and doesn't store it on the RPOL server: <img src="http://www.domain.com.au/here-is-a-pic.jpg">

So would the mini-player pull the data from another site. Besides, Javascript applets usually run client-side, so no server resources are impacted. Again, as far as I understand.

The only potential issue here is caching. Potentially.

In reply to ashberg (msg # 25):

I have an imagination, which is part of why I'm here.  I really would not like someone else's idea of wind rushing through tall, snowy pines to ruin my own concept or memory of such a thing.  :3

edit: for sense-making of sentence structure.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:11, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

Your post is about the embedded player for freesound.org and the iframe for soundcloud.com, they are particular sites.

Unless we have some control about what content a site has, what changes they may (or may not) make to the service offerings, and whether it's going to stay around, I'm extremely reluctant to code particular RPoL functions around said site.



Even my ancient BlackBerry phone's browser lets me open a new window.  I'm not sure I want to worry too much about phones that archaic... not that they'd probably support the javascript player anyway, so the problem is probably moot!

As an aside - mobile friendly is something that needs to be addressed, alas aesthetics is one area I really flounder.



A few other issues I've thought of -

How are you going to handle multiple pages in a thread that a user may view?  It's going to stop and require them to restart the player every time they change pages (my suggestion doesn't).  Also, what's going to happen if you post a thread with an embedded sound and 25 posts later that link is off the page?  When they change pages the link won't even be available.

There are multiple Creative Commons licences that Freesound.org uses (I gave up reason Soundcloud's), how are we going to ensure that the correct (and legally required) credit is provided if the sound is shared under a CC licence that requires it?

Users can edit and delete sounds, how are we going to handle that?  Broken links?  Not a fan of that, one of the several reasons we host our own portraits.

How are we going to handle the security implications of allowing iframes, if we opt for Soundcloud?

Freesound uses a black player, Stormcloud uses a white background; how are we going to handle the jarring aesthetics of this?


Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be a great thing to implement if it could be done correctly.  I'm just not convinced that it's possible if we embed it.

I wonder if there is an audio version of photobucket. At the very least, it would make the poster specifically responsible for the result, rather then another site.

As to listening to some other persons idea of wind thru the trees, I can't agree. When I watch a movie or a TV show, I never complain about the sound affects or the music created by 'other people', why this would be different in these circumstances I don't understand.

As I often say in these threads, however, and as ashberg has repeated stated, the playing of the sound would be optional.

Personally I find the comments regarding if an individual would use it or not more neutral then negative. The only arguments that make sense to me are the ones that reflect if the change would affect those who do not opt to use the option, how it would impact mobile devices, how difficult would be to implement and the ever present but often under-represented issue of potential litigation.

I would like, and use the option, if it deemed feasible, non-intrusive and safe. I hope to see it implemented. Obviously if it cannot, life goes on.

My books don't come with sound-effects.  I think of text-based gaming as something very akin to reading, albeit far more interactive.  I also don't need someone showing me pictures if they can describe the area well enough, just as I don't need them to link to a sound when they could instead tell me about the high whine of the rusty hinges, or the way the floorboards underfoot shift and pop while outside the wind moans and rattles the glass in the upstairs windows.  I vastly prefer my ambiance to come from the description, not props.  That's the immersion for me.  Just my opinion, obviously, but since there was confusion on it I hoped to clear it up.

No confusion, I understood you the first time. Still do.

In reply to Piestar (msg # 31):

My apologies; I took you literally at "why this would be different in these circumstances I don't understand."

You are forgiven.

In reply to Piestar (msg # 33):

Outstanding, thank you. ^_^

Just because the music and player aren't on RPOL servers doesn't mean the site users wouldn't be downloading them. Some of the content would download whether people open the music file or not, and that's what has the potential to slow things down every time a thread loads. I'm sure I'm not the only one who frequently hits f5 or the refresh button to check a page for new posts. I question how much would download every time that happens. Would more download the longer it sits? What about when you write and preview a post and the most recent posts load below your reply?

Personally, if there was to be a lot of music used, I'd prefer it where it's less likely to be clicked on by accident. Sometimes you can't help but click things when you're using a mobile phone for browsing.

Jase, you said you didn't want to connect RPOL irrevocably with another site (such as Soundcloud), as you would if you were using iframes. There's talk of creating a wiki site, isn't there? A site that's separate from RPOL but connected with it? What about a wiki section for in-game music and a method of embedding it that doesn't leave the potential for iframes open for misuse? Dreamweaver automatically has the files right there to play sound files when you set them up (you can choose your player), so finding a player wouldn't be hard. In some instances, it might direct you toward files if they're not on your computer and are needed (Flash or whatnot), but I assume this would be using Javascript (or Java?) and not Flash?

If you used a personally-run site, you'd have more control over what's allowed and how it loads. I'm still somewhat against, but it's possible.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:00, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

For what it's worth we've (where I work) not had good performance results with iframes especially with IE and we ended up removing them and seeking other programming solutions such as ahah.

Thanks for all your comments and feedback.

At this stage, I will withdraw my suggestion. put this idea on hold to consider the points jase raised.



@jase - it seems the best way to deliver this would be via an iframe... as both Soundcloud and Freesound provide iframe embed code... I will think of some ways to mitigate the security risk, as pointed out -- and post any thoughts in here...

If there was a resource for API development, there are avenues to explore there.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:20, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

-1 there are abuses out there like sex/swearing etc that could be put in the embedded content.

RPOL legally, and users, are given a layer of protection by someone having to click a link that goes off site.

Id rather not open up a way to have spam ads, even audio, that this could lead to.

Current users wanting music for a post provide a link to many youtube etc services. That's fine.

In reply to Brygun (msg # 38):
While I don't doubt that you don't like the idea Brygun, I have trouble with an argument based on the abuse of off site links but the alternative you provide is to use off site links.

If the issue of potential spam etc. is the argument, it seems to be out of place as implementing the change would in no way increase the risk. Using Youtube, or even clicking the link to off site game resources poses the same dangers.

The current two fold policy seems to be 1, make the risk optional and 2, community policing. If this is sufficent now, and I think it is, then this change in no way changes the threat level of improper or incorrect action