- 1

Wouldn't embedding music considerably increase the load time, even if the person doesn't hit play? Also, I don't think iframes are a possibility. If they're available for sound pages, they're available for any other url you want to use.

You could link to the music without embedding it. I do this for character music playlists.

Also, you'd be redirecting to the music site anyway, if the music player for certain audio files isn't kept on the RPOL server. Why not just link?

-1.  It's just asking for trouble, because sooner or later someone will try to sneak something through, and it will end up forcing the mods to listen to and approve all the sound clips that get posted.  The games are fine the way they are, and you can always throw out a link if you want to.

@adrasteia1
I don't believe server load time would be affected. The data is still on the host site (eg, freesound) and the mini-player would be hitting their server to play the file. Nothing is stored on RPOL servers = load time not impacted. That's my understanding of it.

@KaiWriter
This is why a 'flag for moderation' icon/link could be included in the mini-player. Also - I don't see how this would adversely impact the moderator's job. If the workload is increased - recruit another mod! :P


Another quote from this forum's required reading:



Providing a javascript mini-player (which plays files hosted on other servers) would certainly contribute to the maturation of the site - adding an extra level of sensory immersion.

@Alexei Yaruk-Mundhenk
Imagine having a mini-player of that Waves of Fiji audio sample you found, but in your post when your group are on the beach arguing over where the rum's gone!
This message was last edited by the user at 03:39, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

Please remember that other users are allowed and encouraged to provide their input - please note another point from the 'Required Reading':

I'm welcoming of others input! Discussion is great!

I am just rebutting each comment in an effort to allay fears that they or the site will be adversely affected.

It is of my passionate opinion that this feature has more pros than cons; in particular with a heavy focus on providing a simple tool to allow GMs to take their game to a new level of immersive RPing.

I'm actually neutral on this idea. But just to throw a little something out there for people to chew on.

I know there are no plans for making an app, or really even doing much in the way of making the site super mobile-friendly. But a LOT of people access the site from various mobile devices. And not all of those mobile devices allow for multiple tabs. So while the "Just link it" advice sounds good, there would be players who would enjoy hearing the linked sound, but would be unable to due to the functioning of their mobile browser. Is that enough players to make it worth embedding things? I have no idea. But my first thought when I saw that mentioned was "What if I was checking from my phone?" I try not to post from my phone because it's ridiculously tedious and prone to autocorrect-related errors. But I do frequently read from my phone.

I don't know if this is feasible, but what if instead of being in a post, the GM set up the link in the GM menu, and then players had a `play' button that they could, at their option, click?  I'm not sure if I'd want it at the top of the thread (in the Title/Posted By/Group # line) or at the bottom (even with the [top] link, somewhere.)  The first feels a little more stylish to me, the latter more functional - since people who click on [new] or [last] won't see the first.

The GM could edit this link, and therefor the `current soundfile', by editing the Thread.  Maybe GMs would get a "Sound URL" window right under the Other Name Window when they do an edit on the first post in the thread.  So as the situation changes, they can add, change, or remove the ambient sound.  If the window is empty, the Play Audio link, of course, would disappear.  When it's playing, it would change to Stop Audio to turn it off.


...I actually have to admit, as a player, I'm a lot more likely to click on something like that than I am to actually open a new window, even if I know it's still linking to another site.  I know the psychology is silly, but it's there.

I don't think it would give the mods any more to do than they already have.  If somebody does something inappropriate, somebody will report it and they'll check in and address the problem, just like with everything else.  If this particular feature turns out to be hugely more trouble than anything else for some reason, then it could be taken away, or set aside for subscription-only someday, but I don't see it.  I don't like the idea of a "flag for moderation" link - if we're expecting that kind of trouble, I'd say no, it shouldn't be there for sure; if we're not, then Rmailing the moderators is already there.

Although I don't think `recruiting another mod' is that easy.  One reason the mods on RPoL are so awesome is because they're so carefully chosen.  I think.  I know BBR was moderating for like ten years before they caught on to him. grin

But my thinking on this is completely based on the premise that you're right that it won't increase load times or anything like that, and I have no idea.

In reply to KaiWriter (msg # 16):

Can we brainstorm some things that would require moderation? Identifying the perceived risks will mean we can methodically mitigate them.

In reply to Maidenfine (msg # 20):

I would be even less likely to utilise this feature from a mobile device.  For those without unlimited data plans this could very, very quickly not only unnecessarily bog down their load times but it could also see them charged extra on their bill.  As an additional thought, some mobile browsers don't support in-browser play of music (if I remember correctly; I'm pretty vanilla and just use Chrome on my mobile devices).  Some devices might not even support the imbedded player.

---

With each new opinion tossed into the thread I'm actually getting closer and closer to changing to a down vote.  I just can't see the advantage in this at all, and I'd be pretty frustrated if I were constantly bombarded in games with something that could go wrong, that my browser might choke on, that might be visibly jarring in the theme I'm currently using, etc.  If I want music I listen to it on my own; when the GM provides a list of "this is what inspired me" I tend to give them a check as well.  But I just don't see the point to having it embedded.

In reply to Maidenfine (msg # 20):

Good point: re mobile devices.

I too often read from my smartphone; but post from desktop/laptop.

Though - the particular javascript mini-player would need to be cross-platform tested, because it is possible that some phone/browser combos will not render javascript properly.

In reply to Lunarius (msg # 23):

Music is one thing; but what about home-made SFX?

Eg, wind in the trees, nature sounds, clashing swords, a creaky door opening, birds chirping, footsteps on autumn leaves....

In reply to Utsukushi (msg # 21):

Just like an image pulls the file from off-site, and doesn't store it on the RPOL server: <img src="http://www.domain.com.au/here-is-a-pic.jpg">

So would the mini-player pull the data from another site. Besides, Javascript applets usually run client-side, so no server resources are impacted. Again, as far as I understand.

The only potential issue here is caching. Potentially.

In reply to ashberg (msg # 25):

I have an imagination, which is part of why I'm here.  I really would not like someone else's idea of wind rushing through tall, snowy pines to ruin my own concept or memory of such a thing.  :3

edit: for sense-making of sentence structure.
This message was last edited by the user at 04:11, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

Your post is about the embedded player for freesound.org and the iframe for soundcloud.com, they are particular sites.

Unless we have some control about what content a site has, what changes they may (or may not) make to the service offerings, and whether it's going to stay around, I'm extremely reluctant to code particular RPoL functions around said site.



Even my ancient BlackBerry phone's browser lets me open a new window.  I'm not sure I want to worry too much about phones that archaic... not that they'd probably support the javascript player anyway, so the problem is probably moot!

As an aside - mobile friendly is something that needs to be addressed, alas aesthetics is one area I really flounder.



A few other issues I've thought of -

How are you going to handle multiple pages in a thread that a user may view?  It's going to stop and require them to restart the player every time they change pages (my suggestion doesn't).  Also, what's going to happen if you post a thread with an embedded sound and 25 posts later that link is off the page?  When they change pages the link won't even be available.

There are multiple Creative Commons licences that Freesound.org uses (I gave up reason Soundcloud's), how are we going to ensure that the correct (and legally required) credit is provided if the sound is shared under a CC licence that requires it?

Users can edit and delete sounds, how are we going to handle that?  Broken links?  Not a fan of that, one of the several reasons we host our own portraits.

How are we going to handle the security implications of allowing iframes, if we opt for Soundcloud?

Freesound uses a black player, Stormcloud uses a white background; how are we going to handle the jarring aesthetics of this?


Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be a great thing to implement if it could be done correctly.  I'm just not convinced that it's possible if we embed it.

I wonder if there is an audio version of photobucket. At the very least, it would make the poster specifically responsible for the result, rather then another site.

As to listening to some other persons idea of wind thru the trees, I can't agree. When I watch a movie or a TV show, I never complain about the sound affects or the music created by 'other people', why this would be different in these circumstances I don't understand.

As I often say in these threads, however, and as ashberg has repeated stated, the playing of the sound would be optional.

Personally I find the comments regarding if an individual would use it or not more neutral then negative. The only arguments that make sense to me are the ones that reflect if the change would affect those who do not opt to use the option, how it would impact mobile devices, how difficult would be to implement and the ever present but often under-represented issue of potential litigation.

I would like, and use the option, if it deemed feasible, non-intrusive and safe. I hope to see it implemented. Obviously if it cannot, life goes on.

My books don't come with sound-effects.  I think of text-based gaming as something very akin to reading, albeit far more interactive.  I also don't need someone showing me pictures if they can describe the area well enough, just as I don't need them to link to a sound when they could instead tell me about the high whine of the rusty hinges, or the way the floorboards underfoot shift and pop while outside the wind moans and rattles the glass in the upstairs windows.  I vastly prefer my ambiance to come from the description, not props.  That's the immersion for me.  Just my opinion, obviously, but since there was confusion on it I hoped to clear it up.

No confusion, I understood you the first time. Still do.

In reply to Piestar (msg # 31):

My apologies; I took you literally at "why this would be different in these circumstances I don't understand."

You are forgiven.

In reply to Piestar (msg # 33):

Outstanding, thank you. ^_^

Just because the music and player aren't on RPOL servers doesn't mean the site users wouldn't be downloading them. Some of the content would download whether people open the music file or not, and that's what has the potential to slow things down every time a thread loads. I'm sure I'm not the only one who frequently hits f5 or the refresh button to check a page for new posts. I question how much would download every time that happens. Would more download the longer it sits? What about when you write and preview a post and the most recent posts load below your reply?

Personally, if there was to be a lot of music used, I'd prefer it where it's less likely to be clicked on by accident. Sometimes you can't help but click things when you're using a mobile phone for browsing.

Jase, you said you didn't want to connect RPOL irrevocably with another site (such as Soundcloud), as you would if you were using iframes. There's talk of creating a wiki site, isn't there? A site that's separate from RPOL but connected with it? What about a wiki section for in-game music and a method of embedding it that doesn't leave the potential for iframes open for misuse? Dreamweaver automatically has the files right there to play sound files when you set them up (you can choose your player), so finding a player wouldn't be hard. In some instances, it might direct you toward files if they're not on your computer and are needed (Flash or whatnot), but I assume this would be using Javascript (or Java?) and not Flash?

If you used a personally-run site, you'd have more control over what's allowed and how it loads. I'm still somewhat against, but it's possible.
This message was last edited by the user at 13:00, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

For what it's worth we've (where I work) not had good performance results with iframes especially with IE and we ended up removing them and seeking other programming solutions such as ahah.

Thanks for all your comments and feedback.

At this stage, I will withdraw my suggestion. put this idea on hold to consider the points jase raised.



@jase - it seems the best way to deliver this would be via an iframe... as both Soundcloud and Freesound provide iframe embed code... I will think of some ways to mitigate the security risk, as pointed out -- and post any thoughts in here...

If there was a resource for API development, there are avenues to explore there.
This message was last edited by the user at 23:20, Wed 27 Feb 2013.

-1 there are abuses out there like sex/swearing etc that could be put in the embedded content.

RPOL legally, and users, are given a layer of protection by someone having to click a link that goes off site.

Id rather not open up a way to have spam ads, even audio, that this could lead to.

Current users wanting music for a post provide a link to many youtube etc services. That's fine.

In reply to Brygun (msg # 38):
While I don't doubt that you don't like the idea Brygun, I have trouble with an argument based on the abuse of off site links but the alternative you provide is to use off site links.

If the issue of potential spam etc. is the argument, it seems to be out of place as implementing the change would in no way increase the risk. Using Youtube, or even clicking the link to off site game resources poses the same dangers.

The current two fold policy seems to be 1, make the risk optional and 2, community policing. If this is sufficent now, and I think it is, then this change in no way changes the threat level of improper or incorrect action