Re: Have We Become Too Jaded?
I love starting at level 7, simply because I played 5 games from 1st to 15+ and then never got to 20th (then). I had literally, literally literally, hundreds of campaigns that like clockwork died at level 7th. Oh we'd level TO level 7, but never do anything. The GM dwould introduce a plot and we'd either A. be like "Um, can we say no to killing a chaotic character just because they're a criminal" to "law" heavy game; or the GM would plan the "next" story as if we were in LotR, artificially saying "Gandalf was a 7th level wizard" no. If he were a magician hje wouldn't be arcane, and if he were arcane, he'd be sorcerer. A damn high intelligence, from age, but no; he was more like a wingless angel. A set in stone "spell-like" user. That through reincarnation remembered another life. One, literally one, dragon magazine issue said it, and it became gospel. I mention this because my GMs, back then, wopuld artificially make our level 7 characters feel like level 1 characters. Trolls, just, literally trolls had templates. Not some, all, not all we'd see, but literally trolls, in their world all of a sudden needed to be more powerful. That's just one example. There were games I would enter in the DM with an agreement that if they couldn't get to level 8, I got next DM trip.
I like starting at higher, because I've ran over 40 3.x games from 1st to 20th. I know it's more, because I only recorded the campaigns in 3.5, and some of those games while good, I just don't have as much good to remark on. The 40 I listed, some were more action, and some were more make up shit. Yeah, my players got to 20, but at least (looking*/-- literally can't was homeless, wrong Hard drive) so a least a few off the top of my head were 1st to epic, but non of the players reminise about That<i> game. I remember about...gaw, I'm so reliant on my list...I think eight excellent, four very good, maybe ten good but not great, and maybe another that were better than what the same players were playing, but just above "roll for inititiative" and "kill the dragon because...well...action!" Then like I said, some were more action and crisp. Eight months we did IRL meeting three solid 72 hours, in our youth, only stopping to eat and...aftereat...and that was it. No sleep, no playing cards. 72 hours or maybe 67 to 76 hours each week, for about 35 weeks.
So I wanted to start at 7th later on. I felt backstories of killin g Hezrou (Toad looking demon with blasphemy) were better than a 1st levbel character, and much better than goblin killed my village. I also like options, my players like having games with options. Magic users and warriors (excluding ToB) were at a crossroads were the paladins, monks, rangers, and fighters all had five level to get cool abilities, but casters were..casting! Not "saving my spells! in case I need to realize that's why I played a spellcaster" all these were reasonable for 7th level. Alot of prereqs that don't exist in 4e, and <I>mostly 60% to 70% not (90%!) don't exist in 5e, and in 3.5 improved familiar special mounts, druid companions, bunches of cool options existed my players and I wanted to have BE part of the BACK storyu, and not hope we'd wing it and make it happen.
We did, however, have two sessions of "playing" that was just talking, dialogue, of them narrating among themselves (or me when I played. That would come WAY later and more often) and agreeing on ther backstory that including not being fresh off the turnip field. BAsically, 3rd was 1st. If we played a "back to basics" there were no commoner NPCs, none...unless they were above ast level, or under minimum age EXCCLUDING addtional dice. So SOME orcs were 1st level commoners but also 9 years old. Some elves were commoners, butr they were 40 years old, could speak like a an 11 year old, but be pummeled by any 18 year old human that had just commopner levels. We changed that, the system had problem of wanting this rich backstory, but made zero things but rats, and cats, and things we joke about; at least everyone I ever knew, that "half level" PC could fight. Goblins could be beaten by just straight up die rolls, yeah it's split, but we never hear about a goblin shortage, and you'd think townthat DID .beat the goblins would, ya know, have leveled, and been able to form hatred of the unleveled goblins. Bascially we over thought it, and mostly...we just wantee combat, which is admittedly what most crunch is. Crnch in other systems resolves "conflict D&D is mostly combat as conflict. Conflict that isn't combat is quick and very messy and unsatisfy ing. Or long and tedious. Belive me, I tried an explorer game. IT got old suriving cold,getting food, climbing, swimming, OMG when one player asked "Hey, is it alright if I say....this isn';t fun" I remembering dropping my DMG (I was was looiking at weather) and just dropped it, sighing contented and saying "Yes!" I paused and read everyone's expression of wanting Blake, short lived, but great guy, to be given medal for saying what we were all thinking. So that game thankfully served a lesson that XP for NPCs can be good, suriving weather is a CR. As is killing CR 1/8 creatures. So...let it be NPCs, and do that as narration or exposition, and problems to resolve in game.
The answer is...yes. Most importantly, for me, because I played a level 13 wizard ion Living Greyhawk that had a 5 strength and faced eight modules were the worst (Great shadows, falling without Featherfall and needing to "climb" to catch my self, etc, grappling underwater and then siwmming, again, etc, I just mnetioned the swimming as OMG) I survived 8 instances whgere my character was toast, just utterly fruit salad, and my team, stranger IRL or llong time friends, even once a player that was the nerd that shaved, but gamer seat cracvk, and played knaves, the last of which was in the swimming, they all those players, put in their characters futures, as time investments that were sacntioned, and they pulled my 5 strength ass out of the fire, burning themselves and risking their certs
(Living Greyhawk was like the DCI of D&D. If you don't know, it was sort of silly, but it was "official": leveling. So you'd have paper proofs of modules you player with bean counting) anyway these players consistenty were GM (good mannered) and for the love of the team play, saved me going to 1st. I could, but enver had to, get a raise dead, but it feels bad. I knew players that that happened to, ;that couldn;t help but play with the rest of us at our APL (Average party leveL) as if they weren't just killed. They insisted (it';ll be fine!) and it wasn't 6th APL is easy, well...not easy, but if yopu played APL 4 you probably knew how to play APL 6, so very doabe, APL 8 is hard though. So I'd see a PC die at 8 AM, and at 5 PM they'd be 5th level and just look like compulsive gambler that bet their car as colleteral, and we'd pony up, but say "hey, we gotta either make new PCs, and work up to meet you, or we gotta play home games, and not LG together).
So yeah, I felt like I played about as hardcore as I could from 1st to 13th in LG, which is slow and meticulous. My homegroup only one player played LG, but we'd all play so often, for years, weekly at LEAST, we just like ropbust combat. At level 1, it's reasonable to heart "color spray, magic missile, sleep" and "assist to attack" or "assist to AC" or "bless, cure light, cure light, attack" and "power attack for 1. Attack. No power attack this time. Fight defensively. Okay power attack. Roll to assist heal" there were just patterns that weren't just optimal but realistically expected. Yeah charm person, but then wahat. Yeah diplomacy....but that's for YOUR char=acter. Eevn if they're helpful. Read that is applies to the diplomat. And Helpful is at best, at 1st level, going to make random stranger spot you 10 gold pieces in a tavewrn, at worse, piss off a rando to start smack talking you. Sometimes it'd even og from smack talking NPC that the bard absolutely insists to "show manners" and rolls natural 4, not evena 1, and the ogre now isn't talking, just smacking.
So yes, I skipped to 7th for my players, and my own GMing that relied too much opn me being unfairly generous, or leavbing it to the dice, or avoiding combat. At 3rd level even, an orc could kill you. TWo could definitely. In 3e (not 3.5) this was notorious for the great axe *3 critical. at7th level, Gricks are no feat of might, but they're fujn to fight. A Troll can be fun, and I got to introduce my first fire giant which utterly wrecked an NPC, that the PCs liked so much they raised him, and essentially power leveled. A well guarded secret was his name, /had "kill" in it, and a play on words. Literally named him (I won;'t name him for IP reason, b ut he was meant to die) and the players saw the fire giant wreck the NPC and it was like my PLAYERS just leveled. They just saw raw damage, and askled sheepishly "Um...that's over 50 damage...um...does...wait! IS he still alive" Yes, he was "Okay....um...does he need...gawd...um...does he need to check for massive damage" and I'd purse my lips and just nod. "Yup, didn't think about that, that's true" and the NPOC made it. Bigh from the players "Second attack, onto..." NPC and the players /went from fear to rage. I have never had player physically fight me at a table, for any BS, but my best friend was so impassioned she stepped up and put her hand on my knee in teh chair, to show how she was (as a monk) kneecapping the giant and I felt incredible pain and juist cried out, to which my friend thiought that was the Giant, and the opther players were like "Anne!...stop" "Yes, PLEASE!" and it was like, okay...I am no longer going to assume LARPing is throwing paper fireballs. IT made for an emotional milestone.
Fighting with spells live slay living, havign raise dead be a PC spell cast upon NPCS that were unjustly dealt bad hand. Teleporting a distressed NPC, or just saying F-U to dragon and scrying on it to teleport in later. It felt more like game AND story. Dialogue dominated every game after, most sessions would be divided. It waas combat heavy or dialogue heavy session. Always, /well not always, but almost always some of both, ;but much more one than the other.
At 13th level, the first time I ran a game that high, I remember envying my players for hacing all thsi stuff, and I /was so tempted to make an NPC to "play" but no. Then the favored soul got 15th and asked if they could take leadership, with caveat, they wanted to have the cohort be an NPC that already was established, but sidelined. Because the favored soul's player, wanted to be a leader, he liked the tactical but also the chain of command leader in leadership. So I got to play a fatespinner wizard, and the bard was more friends to the fatespiner than the favored soul, but thje favored soul was his superior, his officer, not his friend or peer. Randal; (favored soul of Heironeous) was glorious and won many honors, and gave Sampson (the fatepsinner) the second in command for chivalry (Randal personally saved Sampson from execution by an anti magic mage coven) and war (Sampson wasn't a dam,age dealer, but had many divinations and other tactical spells Randal would direct him) anyway. I sampled it, and two of my players started a game at 3rd, and I got to play higher than 7th. I got play then on, under one of them for 5 major, major campaigns roll by roll on record, and 20 more than were excellent even if they didn't get to 20. Then of those, one, one single very unsuspecting "evil" game wwhere the evil mostly foguth evil, and did evil acts, but helped good people, but some of that evil untop evil, used neutral people in evil ways. Some do-gooder paladins might also have detected us and thought their god would save them...as it come to pass...that game starting at 7th went to 58th. That's (despite my innumerous others) not a typo. Fifty-eighth. If you might won der (wasn';[t that boring) No! But... YES! WE skipped some epic levels with droughts in monsters and level up abilities. I will say, it's good lesson. Wizards are tier 0 at 58th. Clerics at least are tier 2. Fighters, at least under a 3rd party book Immortals Handbook were tier one. ToB had nothing close to compensating for a fighter doing 800 damage PER attack, as a plus, not minimum, just the adder. The fact they critivally hit on a 17 and did *8 damage on critical m eant immune to spells or immune to criticals was the single definition of which team, team mental/social, or team physical, would play second fiddle. Sometimes though, yeah, we'd do 33rd, 34th, 35th, 36th and 37 th, but then go to 39th, and then 40th, but then go to...again I can't look! But maybe 44th, just so we had good CR alley and ALL PCs felt the level up, by hitting every PCs chart with at least one meaningful text that wasn't just plus integer.
After that game, we switched systems. We, I think more they, were going to go back to D&D, but I'd really fall in love with Exalted during these D&D, and finally on that big send off, I sort of felt like I'd gone to Mariannna trench and Everest in the same month. I prefer systems that havce conflict, even between allies, instead of mostly combat, and don't worry about levels, but instead focus or breadth. Crafting in D&D, every edition, artificers even, sucks. Serviceable if best, a slight discount at best. In Exalted...I feel like that can be side story, just making a magic item. I feel like what was pass or fail in 3.5, a skill challenge in 4e, and.. I don';t knwo what in 5e. I only played to ;7th. My choice, not any limit from the other players and GM, I just wasn't having fun, and they could tell. In exalted I feel; like that can be story, and have <i>some<?I> physcial combbat, or maybe some spells /to overpower, but also cause emnity, but lots of it is talking as players, and making small impacts session to session, but not just "oh they're convinced" or "No, you just don't make good argeuyment. You cvan retry next level" but instead you see the numeric willpower of having a ethical, or even financial disparity. Keeping a foe alive is often a debate from PC to PC, mine ands others. Are they now slaves? Turn them loose? Put them into a death camp. Forgive them. Indefnitely euthuinize them until we choose to wake them. Recruit them while redeaming them. "saving them" /by putting them into a prison but then forget about them, and start stacking up dozens of cells, where the only inmates are your foes that surrendered. As players sometimes we knew we agreed, but agrred our characters wouldn't have a small talk, and it would be a heated debate, so we'd roll out what's called "social combat".
Anyway, in most games, levels aren't a thing. Levels are prepackaged or fast food meals. Miost games are like a grocer or deli, or butcher or farmer's market. Some are also buffets, that have guilty written into them, but taste so good. In all these cases, XP is currency, not a binary of "below level" and "above level" it is spent on powers, skills, talents, perks, spells, attacks, backgrounds, reputation, so, 'so, so much though is "Okay, so you want to be 20th levek fighter. You start as starting character. You pick only combat 'stuff'. Congrats, there are some very powerful warriors that if you face will m,ay kill ytou, but most warriors will only have brief seconds to 'take a look around' and know every enemy you have will not survive, ;because you are an indestructible master of war" but then somone else can say "I want to be 20th level conjurer" and you say "Congratulations. You can summon most the mythical ungodly and quite legendary creatures. You will need only wait until you have the summoning (spell components) and you have the time (43 and 5e rituals) and you can summon these...for time...but it will take you time, and come with risk. That's what killed D&D for me. That feeling, of the OP. Systems I play, two specifically, they're built to let you be a master only outdone by the grand masters, in ;one ;area if you wish to be a laymen in all other ways. You also have characters that would be, by D&D 3.5, many 1st level classes, but feel like they have more "Levels" in some, but each has its own relative power, so more levels in D&D ina weak class maybe out done by a single level in a strong class. In other systems, you can have a learned all, mastered none character that has toolbox of perks, or talents, or just stuff. That's a thing too! I hate about D&D, that I can't unlearn, unknow. In other systems you can just start with like, 2o9th level magvic items, if you want, but that's what you are. Smart maybe not even, but otherwise Iron Man or Batman. Again, starting rules, minus the "plot characteeR" and especially genius. Batman without his intellect still has alot of cool stuff. Iron man and War Machine have a different user. But I love the scene in MCU Infinity War where War Machine is dropping cluster bombs after shield (not that shield!) is broken. I think Warmachines suit would be inferior, but more fun to play if I wanted to put one on with a single "get out of jail free" card. Starting, ast level, D&D characters feel like they are poor and inept and yet seemingly more powerful then most, yet having..honestly grind against 99% of creatures. 53 doesn't fix this by having levels not equate to difficulty numerics. A 20th level party against ten trolls is time consuming but forgone. It's either "what HP loss, and whjat spells spent?" and "how many more of these do we expect" or "What are we going to need before we have long rest? Are we going to face serious threat that we should string along this trivial combat but just rolling dice and conserving long rest..." stuff.
Play more realtime, and find a group you can feel comfortable to talk about starting level; GM included. Even if that GM is you. I did that, and can't go back and have that again. MY 20+ years long group finally parted. I have two friends I /play with, one online one is my roommate, Anne. Even the latter is deteriorating, and a matter of time. I colunt myself very lucky, but more determine than anything to play every level, and I did. A few games every single 1 to 20 beat for beat. Most though, I'd make four not 13 combats in level and every one would have serious severity; or I'd skip levels. I think, for D&D, if you want to get 7th level, that's a good goal. If you want to go from 7th to 13th, you might find that. Never, however, have IU seen a true 1st to 20th called prior. The opposite is true. Games that were meant to be short term went on for...basically the entirety of a user's time during a decade. Some I've seen have sweeping plots that went from 1st to 12th, and it feels way more like they played in a cut scene heavy game than a D&D battlemap game.
I think the answere, if if you get bored, is to look for people to compromise with you enough you feel you are starting small but growing quicker. Starting hggiher level isn't the only artificial means. You can increase XP, /or decrease antagonist threat levels, includuing HP. I despise this, because it feels more like an ARPG then, even though I play some hack n slash, but if it helps speed up combat, especially on pbp, that might be good. quarter HP for "extras" 1/2 HP for sub-bosses. Full HP for long time antagonstist, but like two versus the entire PC party. Less GM rolls more PC rolls (that matter) helps too.