All the Knight Hawks rules focus solely on the Sathar and UPF Fleets plus the Rim later in the war.  There is never any mention of civilian involvement or Mega-corps or pirates, all of whom are directly affected by the war and would have been involved in some way.  Which begs the question, how many ships might be found in any given system at any given time?  What percentage of them are armed?

As this game has quickly evolved the introduction has been changed...

This game of the Second Sathar War is based on the Campaign from the the Knight Hawks rules.  We are looking for 4 admirals per side plus potential backups or assistants.  Some Admirals may even wish to have individual ship commanders.

I will see if I can adapt what happens in this game to work for the other game I had in mind, for now I just want to enjoy running this game the way I think it was always intended :)

If we get more than 8 players registering here it will good to have back ups as I assume there will be drop outs along the way.

So how are we handling a hex battle map?

I have found one blank map so far but it is only 55 hexes x 40 which I doubt will be big enough.  Still hunting...

Yeah, Imma need more room than that. What about doing it without hexes, and using the equivalent of a “protractor and tape measure?”

I'm not going to make any changes to the rules, what you suggest starts to make things complicated when it comes to maneuvering.  I can find a way to patch multiple hex maps together if necessary.

So while I wait for you guys to sort out who is taking command of what and getting your ship rosters sorted, I will continue musing about the composition of the ships in the Frontier.

After reading the Frontier explorer article about how many ships the Construction Yards could support in the Frontier, I agree around 1500 seems a good number.  I think that included the ship numbers from the UPF and Militia but I will consider those ships as extra, it is less than a hundred and does not skew the numbers too badly.  General consensus seems to be around half those ships are system ships, not capable of interstellar flight, mostly shuttles, local freight and passenger ships etc  In practical terms, most of these ships would have little combat value so I focused on the rest.

I figured the number of ships in any system at any given time was most likely related to the population of that world so I assigned a value to each population level.  Outpost = 1, Light = 2, Medium = 4, Heavy = 8.  Divided across all the planets of the Frontier I came up with 7 ships in an Outpost system, 14 Light, 28 Medium, 56 Heavy.

So the next step is to figure out what the break down is of those ships.  I figure they will fall into a few major categories:

Private Yachts/Cruisers etc  10%

Passenger Cruisers  20%

Mining 30%

Freight 40%

What do you guys think so far?

That seems like a reasonable way to estimate it. Remember that space fleet is paid for out of taxes so would be just a fraction of the size of the private sector shipping tonnage. Look at the United States military... Schneider and JB Hunt by themselves individually probably have more shipping ability than the entire US military. FedEx probably has more cargo planes. However the Federation is not on a total war footing like we were in World War II. The entire economic output of the Federation is not going to support the war effort, and I doubt they would be able to retool fast enough to matter given that this war is going to be over in a matter of just several tendays. So yes, there does need to be a lot of “civilian“ traffic that is several times higher than space fleet.

I don't know what the stats are like in the US but here in Oz small business is the biggest employer so I'd have to think based on that, then probably more than half of the civilian fleet would be owned by the Mega Corps

In reply to GM (msg # 7):

I like the breakdowns, but I disagree with the starship totals. Since HS 5 and below can be launched from a planet, they don't need to be created in a station. That means as many fighters, shuttles, assault scouts, scouts, explorers, research ships, yachts etc as the Frontier needed. You could can even say HS 5 Frigates and Freighters as well, but I am willing to say the warships need to be created at a Station with HS-5 Freighters and Transports being created on planet.

Just my pet peeve :)

In reply to GM (msg # 7):

Drop Mining to 25% and add Scouts/Explorers at 5%

Also, totally off topic, can the UPF get a Topic that lists all of the Defensive Space Stations (FORT,FSS,ASS) and their current status, weapons, etc? It will make it easier to keep track of these things. Thanks!

In reply to GM (msg # 1):

I want to discuss this rule:

Effects of a Misjump. Any ships that misjump during the course of this
strategic game are lost for the duration of the war. They may reappear later in
a campaign, if the referee wishes, but should not be brought back into the
war.

I can understand this if the war lasts only a month or two, but in case of Zeb's Guide, the war lasted 10 years! I can't believe a ship or fleet would be lost for that long. Any thoughts?

In reply to Frank Patnaude Jr (msg # 12):

There needs to be a serious penalty given the risk/reward for risk jumping. Moving that quickly is a big tactical advantage.

I suspect if any UPF fleet is out of play for two months, the war will be over for the UPF.

In reply to Robin Hood (msg # 13):

I agree with that. But since there are rules for jumping into an unknown system and then finding your way back out, I would rather use those instead of the gone for the entire game rule.

Are you not including the star liners, ag ships, and explore action/research ships?

If all you guys agree on this, then I am happy to use the risk jumping rules to find your back.

I will create the thread, you guys can populate it, there is a 'templates' thread you can copy Station info across :)

I don't want to mess with gunnery/pilot skills etc.

Just sayin'. If somebody misjumps from Risk Jumping I can see using the astrogation rules to get un-lost and back into the fight, but I don't want to have to keep track of individual skill levels aboard ships.

They have faction skills for UPF, Militia and Sathar.  Granted the Sathar have crap skills.

Based on the information provided, it seems we're NOT using this rule:



Or am I mistaken and missed something? It makes it kind of hard to make decisions if we don't know what ships are where.

The original rules are designed for two players or teams fighting each other head to head, not for two sides with a GM so Fog of War would be difficult to simulate.  Also being a board game style, players are able to move fleets based on information they would not have for up to two days.  i.e. A ship or fleet could be moved on one side of the Frontier based on the arrival of a fleet on the other side of the Frontier when the commander of the first fleet would not actually get notification until the following day.

Also after reading through the rules surrounding the available detection technology of either radar or energy sensors and jamming via white noise generators, I believe it would not be difficult for either side to move ships and fleets secretly.  Energy sensors only have a range of 50 hexes, so it would not take long for ships to move outside detection range before initiating any jump into the Void.  It would also be simple for any military on either side to enforce an exclusion zone around their fleet locations and banning all other traffic from the area to prevent line-of-sight spying.

Energy sensors can only detect the type of engines, they cannot identify individual ships and the same goes for radar.  At best radar would indicate size or maybe even silhouette at short range but not specific ships.

Both sides are at an equal disadvantage if you cannot identify the individual ships in a fleet marker and the game is more likely to last longer with this kind of shell game, not one clean sweep in the first set of attacks.

As we know the transit boxes represent time rather than distance and if enemy fleets can be detected once they enter a system then the ships must be entering the system within 50 hexes a planet or another energy sensor.  On this thin piece of information I decided that 50 hexes per turn is the maximum speed of any ship entering the tactical map/combat.  This is probably far in excess of what is realistically possible but I think a ceiling limit on speed needs to be set to make the game practical and playable.

With regard to skill levels and other optional rules, both opposing fleet commanders need to agree on any optional rules, so if one player want to use skills and the other does not, then no skills for that battle.

In reply to GM (msg # 21):

Fair enough.  Just a different game that I thought we were playing.  Should be interesting.

Is there a way to post images directly here?

In the meantime here's a little something I whipped up:

Frontier Deployment Map - Turn 1: https://starfrontiers.info/dat...DM-SWII-RPoL-T01.jpg

In reply to Tom Stephens (msg # 23):

Pictures can be posted here in RPOL I just haven't figured out the code to do it.  I can also upload game maps, I only posted a very basic one, when I get time I will update it with more detail.

I like how you did your map Tom.  I rebuilt the whole thing in excel so I can have every ship and station on the map.  I also have room to track pirates and other ships if need be as well (from the ominous message from the GM).

I built the bigger map so when we engage fleets and get exact ship counts it can be tracked easier.

If I were Tom I would not be posting maps showing his ship positions in a forum where the Sathar can find them :)

In reply to GM (msg # 26):

Oh, we'll find out. Our spies are everywhere. :)

In reply to GM (msg # 26):

See I'm still thinking about the regular rules where everyone can see everyone.  But as said, it's not that big of a deal.  Most of my ships were positioned in the rules, the others are minor variations and you already said in the introductions that the Sathar were monitoring the Frontier and knew where everything was when they chose to launch the attack.  So I assumed they had all the UPF locations to begin with as that was implied by the introduction.

That is absolutely correct, I just wanted to make sure everyone was on the right page.  The Sathar had the edge at the start of the war, it was a surprise attack, they knew whee everything was on the first day.

Immediately after the first day the UPF clamp down on security as a matter of course, standing orders and all that stuff.  So the Sathar forces are committed to their attacks, now the UPF can deploy under 'fog of war conditions'.  This is probably the biggest deviation from the rules really.  It gives both sides the opportunity to start redeploying ships stealthily.  From now on all Game Maps will use Fleet counters until fleets enter systems.

In reply to Tom Stephens (msg # 23):

Thanks Tom.that's helpful to me.

In reply to Michael Kramer (msg # 30):

NP.  I post updates in the UPF thread from now on with updates on what intelligence we have.

OPSEC

I have posted an updated Frontier Deployment Map

The War Diary has been updated with the UPF movements for turn 1

It is now Sathar movement turn 2

There are now 3 thread pinned to the top of the forum, the Official War Diary (Turn Record) and each side has a thread for your official deployment orders.  Talk as much as you want in the other forums, when you post in the deployment forum, there are no 'do-overs'.

The Roll20 site is ready to go, we have character sheets there for every ship on both sides, there are a bunch of maps prepared in several systems and Robin and I had a pretty successful test play a couple of days ago, so those of you who are on Roll20, we have an excellent tool for resolving combat now :)

In reply to GM (msg # 33):

So the updated map will be the 'Game Map?' I just want to make sure I'm looking in the right place for updated movements.

One more rules question/clarification.  Sorry.

Are we using the as written victory and retreat conditions? Namely to win, the Sathar have to kill 12 stations including all fortresses and they have one of five retreat conditions that we as the UPF don't know about?  With UPF victory depending on how many fortresses are left when (if) we force them to retreat.

Or are there some other victory conditions we need to be accounting for?

That is correct, except the Sathar do not know yet, what their retreat conditions are either.

OOC: Is there a limit to how many Sathar ships a single SCC can replace during a turn? Is it a single ship of any size? It is as many ships as we are lucky enough to roll 35 or less on? We kind of need to know this. (also, note typo, shouldn't that be 36 rather than 26? KH Expansion Rules p60 "Replacements."

In reply to Robin Hood (msg # 37):

Yes, that's a typo.

They way I read it is that you roll d100 for every ship lost in the last 20 days.  If you roll 35 or less, it gets added back into your Order of Battle and you can bring it into the game at any time including on the next turn (following the restrictions that no more than half of the ships you bring in on a turn can be in the same SSC).  If you roll 36 or higher, it is permanently removed from the game and can never be brought back.

I think the fairest, most logical solution would be for the Sathar player to roll for each ship lost.  Once the number of ships saved has been determined then replacement ships would be divided as evenly as possible between the SCC's

Hey folks I am away from home for a couple of days so not the same access to all my resources.  The Sathar fleets have each progressed 1 transit box in turn 2.  I will update the map later in the week.

Is it safe for me to assume over the next 2-3 moves that everyone will move 1 box per day (or 2 if risk jumping)?  If anyone is planning movement changes in the next couple of turns let me know so we can move ahead without delay.

It is currently turn 2b UPF movement phase.

Casadine forces will remain on course.

So, how do I find it on Roll20?

The War Diary has been updated and I have uploaded the current map.  I do have copies of the map saved for every movement turn if anyone ever needs to double check any movement in between maps that are posted.

Sathar Admirals need to declare any attacks for turn 5.  In Fromeltar we need to know if the target is Groth or Terledrom.

So Tom is up against David at Fromeltar.  Meanwhile the Sathar admirals will need to decide who is going to take command of their Fleet Alpha until we get a 4th admiral.  You guys could even share command of the fleet in battle if yu like, up to you.

In reply to Tony Digaetano (msg # 42):

Because I'm not a paid member, it won't show up in searches. I have to share the link with you. :(

https://app.roll20.net/join/79...JntkVWvg8zweNL9tg6vg

Crossposting this with the Facebook group.

It may help to make the Orders of Battle for both sides into a General topic, including which player is in charge of those ships, so that we know not only what we are facing, but WHO we are facing so we can schedule our EPIC SPACE BATTLES. :)

If nobody else is stepping up to command the Alpha Sathar Fleet, currently set to... liberate... Zikit in the Kizkar star system. Tom, is there a particular time that you'd like to schedule for this that works with RJ's schedule? I'd love to do it live on Roll20, but if we need to play by post I can do that.